Of the surrounding communities West Orange has the highest percentage of students attending private educational institutions. WO is certainly not the wealthiest of the surrounding communities, must be a statement on the quality of the public education system in West Orange.

It IS a statement on the quality of the education. Don't kid yourself.

I went to Northeastern - it's not so great!
I'm sure the very top kids got into great schools, but what percentage of WOHS students get into the top tier? That tells the true story. I'm glad your children did well, but I bet there are many who can't say the same.

I only support public schools. My son attended in a blue collar town just out outside of Boston years ago and received a 1st class education. A majority of seniors graduating there all attended college, many in very very presitigious institutions. I attended a public school in Santa Fe, NM (decades ago) as a minority at the time (I'm caucasion) and the schools were excellent there as well.

Curious where these numbers came from? The actual 2010 census? Let's look at some basic Math using Millburn as the example. Reported in the above article 5024 students in Millburn with 15.6% attending Private schools - or 784 students. which leaves 4,240 attending the public school. The only thing is in 2010 Millburn School District reported an enrollment of 4,941 students or 701 students more than accounted for in the above reported census? It looks like there is something wrong. Do other towns numbers jive with their Districts 2010 enrollments?

@ sgyaft - My tax dollars support public schools...certainly not all private schools are created equal and the same goes for public. You can't say all public schools are great. There's irrefutable data that there is a major problem with our educational institutions in this country. Watch Waiting for Superman. That will give you a better picture. I also speak from experience...I went to a public school in an affluent town (not in NJ) and I can tell you I had some majorly bad experiences, from unenthusiastic and apathetic teachers, to bullying. Oh, but wait...yep, certainly our school had it's fair share of Ivy League bound students. Doesn't count for much when a huge percentage was falling through the cracks. I basically graduated high school almost math illiterate. Yet I went to Northeastern. What does that say for the public school I attended or Northeastern for that matter?

When kids go to private school it doesn't automatically mean they are great students and want to get away for a better education. I grew up in a wealthy district (outside of NJ) in one of the top school districts in the state. Parents often pulled their kids out of the public schools because the kid was having behavioral problems and the parents wanted them away from their friends who were a distraction. So they would send them to a couple of the different catholic schools nearby. These schools were certainly not better than the public schools and often lacked funding. This resulted in less or outdated technology, outdate textbooks, etc. So all private schools are certainly not created equal.

I read recently that a lot of students that used to attend private schools are now coming back to the public schools, primarily because of the economy and parents not wanting to spend the extra money on a private education. And as the cost of college tution continues to steadily rise, I wouldn't be surprised if that leads more parents to put their kids in public schools that may have otherwise gone to private school.

I think we should all look at this report and take it with a grain of salt. Parents send their children to schools based upon many different reasons ie religious affiliation being one of the biggest.

What makes me proudest about my school district is not how many kids get into top tier schools (although there are many) but how many kids who may have never even thought about going to college are not pursuing higher education as a result of their experience in high school.

Gary is right. I would think that the majority of private school attendees in West Orange go there due to religious belief, over the belief that the public schools are inferior.

I feel they are inferior. Actually, let me clarify: the one my family is zoned for is inferior. Some of the elementary schools in W.O. are probably decent. But definitely not all.

Also, it's not necessarily just an educational issue. If there's no discipline in the schools, that's a huge disruption in class time. I know of several kids who have complained of being bullied. Not to say private schools don't have incidences, but they get a handle on the problem quickly and are more aware of the interactions between the kids.

How do you know?

My children play with the kids in our neighborhood and a few were talking about various bullying they encountered. Also, I see how the kids behave on the playground. I've also heard parents complaining about various issues.

Or if you're asking how do I know issues are addressed quickly in private school - my kids attend private school. I attended public schools and I can tell you stories of tortured kids where no one intervened. I also have friends who have kids in public schools and it seems as if it's the same story as in the past.

That's not to say private schools are the be all/end all. But perhaps due to the class sizes, the fact that the parents are paying tuition, or whatnot, there is much less of that kind of behavior and when it does occur, it's addressed immediately. That has been my observation thus far.

No... I was asking how you can determine that your zoned school is inferior. Cursory encounters and heresay are not dependable sources.

I based my decision on what I observed with my own eyes of how the kids were behaving as well as upon a meeting with the principal when I asked basic questions about the school when I first moved here. The principal was beyond rude and nasty and clearly didn't want to be bothered with my inquiries.

I also made my decision when I visited the private school and was met with courtesy as well as my observations when I looked in on classes where the children were engaged and attentive and seemed respectful and happy.

I had an open mind, but was taken aback by what I saw in the particular school we are zoned for. Since then, I have had my opinions reinforced by what I stated above. I don't think that would be considered cursory. But how would you recommend assessing a school? Ignore what you've seen, and see if your kids sink or swim? I'm not going to put my kids in public school just to be PC.

Parents can put their children in whatever school they deem best. You are entitled to your opinion on the public school in your 'zone'. For many parents, they don't have that option. The more a public school can do to address its challenges and connect with its community, the better. It sounds like you had a bad experience. While not in the majority, it shouldn't have happened, if it happened the way you say.

What's most troubling to me (or at least reason for my own skepticism) is that, more often than not, those who speak well of our public school system (or most anything else) have no problem putting a name, face and reputation behind their opinions...while those expressing criticism tend to do so from behind psuedonyms.

@cynthia cumming: it did happen that way! I'm not making up a story. I was treated disdainfully by the principal. I also have seen things by the children; aggressive behavior, cursing at adults, throwing objects, etc! Granted this is on the playground and not in the building itself (as far as I know) but I can tell you, you won't hear that outside at the private school my children attend. At least not so blatantly!

@ gary englert: As for "hiding" behind a pseudonym...I am merely being private (no pun intended) because I do not want to offend my neighbors who have chosen to put their children in that particular public school. That is their choice and each parent has to know their own child/children well enough to know whether that will work for them. Or, perhaps they don't have a choice, and I wouldn't want them to feel like their kids are in a bad place. Although I have heard them complain about the school and talk about various issues. But again, my children play with their children and I don't want there to be repercussions if someone can't handle my opinion.

I'm not only protecting my privacy, but you'll notice I haven't named the particular principal or elementary school I've been discussing. I am not hiding by any means. Merely trying to have a discourse without malice.

The statistic were about 1 in 5 West Orange students are not in the public schools for educational or theological reasons speaks volumes for the need for educational reform and education funding reform.

WOSKEPTIC - West Orange has good schools and teachers. The problem is some schools are failing, like Washington elementary school. This is in the recent NJ school report card published in Star Ledger. You can also check it out on the web. Schools like St. Cloud, Gregory and Roosevelt are comparable even to Millburn and Livingston schools for Language Arts NJASK scores (for advanced proficiency). They are behind those schools in math advanced proficiency score mainly because those schools have more motivated children and supportive parents. Edison was a failing middle school and to improve the average score, the BOE brought in students from all over the town to that school. They call this failed experiment Central Six. They only managed to drag down good students.

Adam, you know as well as I do that the preponderance of parents sending their kids to private school in West Orange are for religious reasons.
MP, I am not sure how you can call EMS 'failing' ... when overall parent and kid experience their is so overwhelmingly positive, grade and personal wise. You seem like an intelligent person. Do you understand the whole AYP and NCLB requirements that cause a school to 'fail'? Check the statistics in Millburn, Livingston and other towns... they failed AYP this year too. And at the high school, AP and honors students do very well. Have you heard about the IMS school?

@Gary Englert: You are obviously proud of the public schools, but maybe if you could listen more to what people are posting instead of being so defensive, you could help address the issues at hand. All you want to say is: Rah, Rah, public school. Don't you think there are problems that need solving? Why not take a more charitable view toward the reasons people are posting. It's not necessarily to disparage, but to point out what they find troubling in some of the public schools. If you look at how the U.S. is competing among students worldwide, you would see that we are no longer at the top of our game.

My three children are in the West Orange Public Schools. The West Orange Public Schools do many good things. For the most part the teachers do a good job. However, we have issues and those issue are real. The cost to the taxpayer is significant more than it should be. The test scores are not as they should be. We do good things for high achiever and great thing for special education. However the educational program for vast middle tier of students is not working nearly as well as it should. Yes, theology is a major reason as to why a significant part of West Orange is opting out of the public schools but it is not the only reason. We can't just go rah-rah ya school and sweep the need for educational reform pedagogically and fiscally under the rug. Conversely slamming the public schools as being wrong at every turn would be counter productive and unfair. We need to keep what is good with the public schools good and improve what needs to be improved starting with how we treat and teach the vast middle tier of students.

When will people start to understand that the issues being discussed with our schools comes from the makeup of our town. 25 percent of our students only have one parent at home. A large percentage of our students have parents who do not speak English. Other towns have a greater percentage of parents with college degrees, two parents at home, and high paying jobs which enables parents to hire private tutors for their children. West Orange has amazing schools but the demographics of our town are different than the towns with higher test scores. Students are able to get a wonderful education in West Orange. We just need to make sure that the schools are safe and conducive for learning. It is also important to mention that the West Orange school district prepares students for the real world. The world is full of people with many different backgrounds. Students don't get to experience that in some of the other towns in their perfect and secluded environments.

I couldn't agree more Mark. I just had a discussion with a friend of mine from a neighboring town which is considerably less diverse that WO. She is very concerned that she is raising her children in a bubble and that when it comes to the real world she is concerned which is why she has her children become involved in activities in communities that are not so homogeneous.

As a parent of a chiild going off to college in fall I have no such concerns given the education they have received in WO.

How does the world view an education in the United States? Rather well, actually...so we must be doing something right!

U.S. higher education has climbed out of its post-9/11 international enrollment dip and attracts more foreign students than any other country — a record 691,000 in 2010, up from 475,000 in 2000, with the increase driven by an upsurge in Chinese undergraduates.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/education/international-students-pay-top-dollar-at-us-colleges.html

If 25 percent of our students have only one parent, how are they able to afford our high taxes. Are they all living in apartments?

MP and Adam Kraemer: You are right on the money with your comments. I can't understand why Mr. Englert is completely blinded to any need for educational reform in W.O. or in the U.S. as a whole. There are myriad of examples of how our schools are failing. But let me clarify: I never said ALL the WO schools were bad. The one that my kids would have attended did not impress me, and my husband (who is a first generation American and who grew up in a tough neighborhood in NYC) was especially adamant that we send our kids to private school. We tried to be open-minded and we chose to live in WO for its diversity, but many of the comments by MP and Mr Kraemer are exactly some of the problems we saw. You have some excellent students and you have some good programs for kids who are doing poorly and then you have the majority who get lumped together or dragged down by unmotivated, disruptive kids.

A stereotype about private school is that they are in a bubble. The school my kids attend is VERY diverse. My children have friends from all races and economic backgrounds. They interact with the surrounding communities. My children are mixed race and the idea that they are sheltered from the rest of the world is absurd. But when they are in school, they are there to learn. If private school affords them a better atmosphere for focusing, if there is more discipline, and they are being challenged, then that's right - I'm all for private school!

One additional comment: don't think that if kids are attending religious schools it's purely because the parents want their kids to have that religious component. Sometimes it's because those schools are more affordable than let's say MKA or some other high-end private school.

Mr. Englert: due to my poor public school education I had to look up pusillanimity.
I have the right to remain private in regard to my identity. No amount of verbal taunting from you will force me to reveal my identity. You want to discount my comments just because I wish to remain private that's your choice. I feel that others are taking my comments for what they are: a concern for the education of the children in our area. The outcome of how children are educated affects society as a whole. Whether you have children or not. They are the future. So I care very much about all the educational offerings available to them. Whether it's public, private, after school enrichment, camp, etc.

As for my credentials: I'm a parent. That's all that's required for me to use my voice in regard to this topic. I call it as I see it. If that offends you, you need to ask yourself why you want to spout only positive numbers and not acknowledge what many others are also posting about their concerns.

Mr. Englert: why do you feel the need to insult me? I haven't called you any names so why do you insist on calling me a coward? Would seeing a pretty picture of me help you find my comments more credible? What benefit would my picture, and full name do for you in regard to my comments? I told you that I'm a parent. I'm not an attorney. I don't have special credentials. So why do you need my name and picture for me to back up what I'm saying? Would that help you hunt me down? You want my phone number and address???

Mr. Englert: Furthermore: I pay taxes and I am a resident of WO. My husband and I made a decision to opt for private school. Now ask yourself why we would want to pay exorbitant taxes AND still pay tuition. Are we just fools? Or do you think we saw something we didn't like?

Mr. Englert: You have completely reinforced my decision for private school. You are combative and unwilling to listen to my comments. I experienced the same combativeness with the principal at HAZEL elementary. Does that clue you in on my neighborhood? Does that help you? The principal has since moved on. Gee...I wonder why? Apparently many parents had issues with her. Verify that! Your goal is to win an argument. When you say, hearsay from unnamed neighbors...what if they don't appreciate my repeating what they said in a private conversation? What kind of standing do I need in the community? I can give you my name and you can verify that I am indeed a WO resident. I have no arrest record. Is that the kind of standing in the community you're talking about? What does this have to do with people pointing out issues about schools? You write: I'm a real human being. Who do you think is writing this...a fake human being? I don't get you? You harp on ridiculous aspects of what my name is. Since I chose NOT to send my kids to HAZEL, what difference does my name make???? I do NOT get what you are fixated on! Does standing in the community mean I take care of my property? That we aren't behind on our mortgage? Again, I am trying to point out PERCEPTION about the local school. If you want people to be drawn to this area, I think you might want to consider my comments.

Because if some perspective home buyer asks me what I think about my local school, I will be sure to give them my OPINION. You can sit there and be smug and right as rain, but it's not going to change how people are PERCEIVING the area. Do you see the difference? No, I don't actually KNOW what goes on inside HAZEL. But I see plenty of bad behavior and believe me, kids are influenced by their peers. You are deluded if you don't think so. There have been drug busts on the Hazel playground. Go look up the police reports! There was a shooting near the school. Look it up! Not an environment for my kids. But thank you for your enthusiasm about the WO school system. I'll pass.

One last comment: are you also not aware that a lot of the poor kids who come to school in WO are not residing in WO? They use the names and addresses of relatives who reside here. And you can look that up too!

woskeptic, do you have kids in the WO school system? If you do you might remember that we all had to re-register all the students in 2010. They do that on a regular basis and the kids that are caught not living here will not be allowed to go to school here.

If anyone knows a non West Orange resident attending our schools, they should report them to the BOE so that they can be investigated.

No, by all means,don't act on anything anyone has said. It's all "anecdotal". I have neighbors who have said things to me regarding the school. That carries weight with me. I have seen a girl crying because other girls kept taunting her by calling her white girl. But, hey, it's all good.

As for being foolish - I prefer to be foolish but honest. If someone asked me about Hazel, I would tell them my kids don't go there. I would also let them know they aren't zoned for Gregory. Because I've been to many Open Houses where the realtor lists that as the school. Now why do you think that is? I still have my house listing when we bought our house. It says GREGORY school! Blatant lie!!!

If my family could get out - we would. There have been multiple robberies on my street. My neighbor across from me was robbed while she and her child were sleeping upstairs!!! But Mr. "Lived here for 50 years" thinks we're in paradise. No one can sell their homes, and don't tell me our school is a big draw. Wake up!!

The ONLY thing good I can find is that I happen to have kind, and caring neighbors. So that makes our being stuck, bearable.

I'm glad I didn't give you my name Mr. Englert - you'd organize a mob to throw things at my house.

Enjoy the pristine world you live in. You should probably run for mayor. I'd vote for you. You have ALL the answers!

what makes me "skepical" is that WOSKEPTIC does not have any kids in the our school sytem but claims to be knowledgable and thinks we need education reform. My kids perform at top levels BECAUSE of their WO education. My senior is getting into good schools and both of my kids are better off because they went to school in the real world. Please do not make empty statements when your kids are not products of OUR system as Cynthia, Michelle, Lisa, Gary and myself children are.
Maybe you should take the time out and speak to many of our HS students and see for yourself. Oh and by the way I am a WOHS '79 grad and choose to live here over the neighboring communities.

woskeptic We too have some terrific neighbors . I am sure you are truthful and correct about everything you write , and I mean everything . I speak from personal experience. Like you , I will not sacrifice the truth to "Property Values " or the "If you can't beat them ,join them " mentality . A large number of my generation are syncophants and obsequious , groveling compulsive {or worse } liars .woskeptic ,keep fighting the good fight .Bravo !

Gary, if it cost's at least a $1000 for the cheapest one bedroom apartment in West Orange, ( I was unaware that that is where they start), then the proposed units at the Edison development are going to be a great deal. Anyway, the cost doesn't matter. What does matter is that there are a lot of people in West Orange who struggle to make ends meet. That is hard on families and has a direct impact on the school system no matter how good the teachers are. It costs a ton of money to live here and some people really find it difficult. I am very grateful that I have not had to experience the financial difficulties that so many people deal with every day,

TEST SCORES : Edison Middle School grade 6 : 23.2% falied Language/Reading 25% failed Math . Liberty Middle School, Grade 7 : 23.8% failed Language /Reading ,28.2% failed Math . Hazel Avenue Elementary School : Grade 3 : 40% failed Language/Reading 20% failed Math Grade 4: 31% failed Language/Reading 22% failed Math Grade 5 ; 51% failed Laguage/Reading 13% failed Math Response : Longer school day and year ? Eliminate or reform tenure ? Professional standards ? REAL anti -cronyism nepotism policies ? Nah . We're an "Abbott Rim District " { ? } Low income single parent households , non English speaking students , bad economy , test scores don't matter , and of course MY kids are getting a great education { So to Hell with the rest ? } Police Director Parisi said crime was up 36% from the same period last year . Restore or increase staffing levels ? Better deployment ? Nah . Just say "It's a reflection of a bad economy .Things are tough all over Besides , this kinda stuff has always gone on " Pave the crumbled streets ? Trim the badly overgrown trees and remove the hanging limbs ? Keep the streets clean ? Nah . Lets give a developer millions to develop the Battery Building and ignore reality Property values people , property values. It's ALOT easier to say things are good and to make excuses than to work at improving things and face reality .

OK, I had no clue that was one of his titles too. I prefer to call him Mr. Mayor.

So there are no bonds or millions for the development per see but an investment in the town, which is so needed. Why should the people living on Main Street and behind the Edison Bldgn have to live like that. For anyone who feels we shouldn't do anything about that area I invite you to go live there for a week or two. Or just take a drive thru the neighborhood.

We could have a great down town with revenue from some great stores and restaurants in that area. Reviving downtown would also add value to the rest of the town.

Montclair
7th grade Hebron Middle School 25% failed Language /Reading. 35% failed math.
4th grade Rand Elem 48 % failed Language /Reading 30% failed math.

Hazel free or reduced lunch 51%
Rand 24%

So we are doing better than Montclair with many more disadvantaged kids.

If the 25% single parents cannot afford the $1000 rent, they are free to go to a place that is cheaper for them. Other hard working tax payers have no obligation to support them. They should work hard, try to stay married and raise their kids in a good household. If they cannot do that, they shouldn't get married and have children, period.

Thank you Mr. Prignano! Mr. Englert and Ms. Cadeau think that because my children aren't in the public schools that I haven't a clue about them. I have been relating stories from others who DO have kids in the schools. What if I was a reporter doing interviews around town and wrote and article quoting people? Yet somehow, my writing about these issues is "defamatory". I have said all along that not ALL the schools are bad. But test scores and other issues do reflect a general problem.

Then Mr. Englert prefers to disparage my intelligence because I happen to not be a human dictionary memorizing all the words in the English language. By the way Mr. Englert, you have many typos in your messages. Should I consider that a lack of skill or intelligence? Get off it, already! I was with my children when I went to look at the school. I spoke very politely to the principal and she greeted me with, "What are you here for, again? I don't really have time to talk to you." Then I said I had made an appointment with her and she gave me a dirty look and said, "My secretary will handle your questions." I barely got to have a conversation with her and she foisted me off even though I spent EIGHT months trying to get a meeting with her. I only got one after writing to the Superintendent (since retired).

As for the foolishness of me and my husband in moving here...well, we bought at a time when there were bidding wars on every house we saw. We did do our diligence and we were told that some people zoned for Hazel do in fact send their kids to Gregory. At the time our children were babies so school seemed a long way off and honestly, we thought we'd live here for a few years and move on before the kids started school. Too bad I didn't have a crystal ball to find out our mortgage is worth more than our house now and there isn't a prayer of selling it in the near future. So yep, we should have done our due diligence with a fortune teller so we wouldn't have gotten into this mess. You, Mr. Englert are as charming and polite as the lovely principal I dealt with. How you got so far in this town (by bullying perhaps?) I'll never know. Do you not see any bad in WO? How can I take you seriously when you won't acknowledge that there is room for improvement? The kids whose test scores are failing should point you in that direction. Kudos to the parents whose kids are excelling. But that says more about your parenting than about the quality of the schools. Feel free to disparage me. But I am writing from my observations, from things I've heard from parents of children in the WO schools, and because as long as I do live here, I still care and wish WO could improve. The downtown area would be another great starting point. But that's a whole other conversation.

Mr. Geltzeiler, I haven't said I'm knowledgeable on this subject. I related my experience when I attempted to find out information regarding Hazel. I was met by a rude, and stonewalling principal who had no interest in telling me about the school. I have made observations about behavior I have seen from the kids. Not ALL the kids behave a certain way, but I have seen incidences and have heard things from the children of my neighbors. I am merely discussing my impressions, and perspective. You can tell me that Hazel and every public school in WO is the most outstanding in the state. I doubt you would believe that yourself. Congratulations to you on the success of your children. How fortunate that you sent them to a place where they thrived.

Despite your assertion, I am living in the REAL world. In the real world people have differing views. In the real world you have to learn that not everyone will share your opinion. My kids are not in fantasy land. They are in the world. Just because they go to private school doesn't mean they don't know how to socialize, interact, or otherwise navigate the world. Since your kids don't attend private school you have no knowledge about them and can't with any authority question whether they're in the REAL world or not. That's how you sound when I make a comment about public schools. You have your impressions about private school, don't you? Doesn't make your opinion invalid. At least I respect your right to say it.

Mp... You are the wow post today. :p

The " Mission Statement " of the public schools - " Preparing children to compete in a hyper -competitive hi-tech global economy " is a crock . Compare West Orange to Millburn and Livingston and here it comes : Not fair ! Higher incomes , more parental involvement , better educated parents , homogeneous , more motivated students !! These are neighboring towns The educrats will not accept comparisons to neighboring towns, let alone other countries . How do we stack up next to Japan? Not fair ! More affluent , homogeneous , more involved and better educated parents etc. According to the educrats , largely external and uncontrollable factors guarantee academic failure . No amount of money or great educators can do much of anything to change one's destiny . People who flee from competition cannot teach competitivness . The pseudo - scientists have concocted what else ? A pseudo - scientific failure formula: Parents not well educated and not involved or not involved enough { How do they quantify that ? } unmotivated or undermotivated students [ { Again , how do they quantify that ? } family income ,broken homes and so on and so on . These children will ABSOLUTELY fail . That's where self -esteem education and lack of accountability come in . The children must be made to understand that there was failure { Not their's } because of almost exclusively external factors beyond anyone's control . Rotten public schools , where making excuses is our business ,our only business .

woskeptic You're welcome And thank you very much. As Victor Lazslo said to Rick at the end of Casablanca " Thank you , and welcome back to the fight ".

@Michelle Cadeau - I can appreciate all that you just posted. At least you have a respectful and empathetic view of my opinions. (Mr. Englert referring to someone as "twice failed candidate for mayor weighing in" How does that advance the topic of conversation? He is just saying nasty things just to say them. It serves no purpose.) It also amazes me how you are able to get things done when having to deal with people who are on a high horse and won't open their ears or hearts to another opinion. I said over and over that I didn't think all of WO public schools were bad. He never gave my opinions the slightest consideration. He just was intent on batting them down.

Yes, it is sad that I don't feel more proud of this town. We moved here with hopes and dreams and unfortunately we have met with some disappointment. Again, I do think we have kind, lovely, neighbors, and that's worth a LOT! My kids do participate in MTL sports and have enjoyed that. But I still say, that just because they aren't getting a public education doesn't mean they are in a bubble of some sort. True, there is a different approach to education, but at the college level all backgrounds will mix: public, private, parochial, home-schooled, etc. These people of different backgrounds and educational styles will bring their own unique perspectives to how things are done in the future. That's what makes the world go round.

West Orange is a GH Group School district. The state groups schools A thru J. Group A has has districts like Newark and Camden while districts like Millburn and Princeton fall in J group. Of the forty some odd GH group school districts West Orange has standardized test scores trending low with in this group and per student spending trending high with in this group. If this is not reason to look for reform of how we run the West Orange public schools, I do not know what data would cause people to want reform.

Years ago , then Schools Superintendent Dr. Suprina sent home a letter with a quote from a renowned educational expert " The most important classroom resource is time " Dozens more school mandates then when I was a student , and the school board and teachers have responded by reducing school hours . When there are challenges , we all must try harder , and do MORE .

"Woskeptic kids will do just great. They live in a economically/racially diverse town and she has said that their private school is racially diverse. Her children are of mixed race. Michelle - how much more diversity do they need. She just doesn't like the public school in her neighborhood. You can't get rid misbehaved kids in a public school. Private schools will only tolerate it so long and then you are out. Why should her kids waste any time waiting for a teacher to repeatedly discipline a kid/kids when they could be engaged and learning. A school isn't turned around just because a principal leaves--it takes time. Woskeptic shouldn't waste any of her children's time if she feels it's not the right environment.

It's too bad that Gary and Michelle can't stand to hear an opinion that differs from their own.

Rose King

I think Woskeptic and Mr. Prignano have equally strong opinions that they have spent quite a bit of time and space advocating for. If they want their views respected and read, then they have to accept that others may disagree and those folks are also allowed to voice their opinions. I would however, like to mention a few things. The former Hazel principal ran a school that was given Blue Ribbon status, so the comments about 'undoing the culture' are unfair and inaccurate. The current principal is addressing many of the demographic issues that have made educating as diverse a population as West Orange challenging. As for district classification, West Orange is unique in that it is classified as a 'wealthier' district, though 33% of its students are considered economically disadvantaged. And Millburn, Livingston, Caldwell, etc., all failed AYP this year too. Let's see what happens now that NJ is no longer required to follow NCLB statutes.

I am a supporter of the West Orange school district but it is interesting to note that this is the Millburn-Short Hills Patch. They don't seem to have any school issues to discuss. Maybe all of the complainers should move there.

I have no problem, whatsoever, in hearing divergent opinions and, specifically, ones that disagree with my own. Intelligently presented without rancor, I am more than capable of simply agreeing to disagree.

I don't know what anyone was taught at Northeastern (or elsewhere) but, any high school or college paper I ever wrote was replete with the requisite footnotes and a bibliography in which my sources were noted and credited. Coupled with my having embraced a founding legal principle of this country, that one has a right to face their accuser, I have a healthy skepticism of, and disdain for, anonymous assertions. Purely and simply, they make separating the wheat from the chaff annoying and often impossible.

Another issue in this stream (as evidenced by woskeptic and, most recently, rak) are some reading comprehension problems. Nowhere in my posts did I state that there was no room for improvement in our public schools; what I repeatedly pointed out was that it is difficult to accept, let alone act upon, anonymous reports on much of anything and that they serve no useful purpose.

It's an old saw but, all too true: pointing out problem is easy, finding solutions for them is far more difficult. Failed political candidates who incessantly complain yet, having no record, whatsoever, of any positive civic accomplishemnt should be identified for who and what they are and disregarded.

None of this is evidence of either beligerence or combativeness: it is common sense.

@Mark Paulson: the reason this got started on the Millburn/Short Hills Patch is because of the article posted there discussing public vs. private schools and the how the numbers skewed. I'm sure many of us would move if we could afford it. Lest you think I'm a snob - I was looking for diversity and I have found it - in the private school my kids attend. They are happy and thriving. So, really, I don't have any complaints. Nor should you: I pay my taxes that benefit the WO public schools, so I'm obviously doing my part to finance these paragons of education.

It's interesting that people concerned about education, and who inhabit a particular town are "complainers" just because they are asking questions, or debating issues within that town. As a tax paying resident it's my right to know where my dollars go. Especially if I feel I'm not able to utilize a particular service like the public schools because of those concerns. According to you, all those with issues should shut up, put smiles on, and pretend everything is dandy. I thought America is about freedom of speech and expression. I guess not if you're "complaining".

My sport of choice was powerlifting . I won many contests , and I lost quite a few . I was in the 181 3/4 weight class. I won contests because I picked up more weight than my competitors . I lost when someone picked up more weight than I did .Period . No socio-economic factors, there was no E for effort , and no one showed any regard for an also - ran's self esteem Educating children is too important to use " Guilty with an explanation " arguments ,or " When I explain to you why there's such a high failure rate , you'll come to realize that given the myriad adverse conditions i've articulated , we're actually very successful. "Just as sure as fire burns and water's wet . children CAN'T learn when the school is closed . The best teacher in the world is utterly useless if they're not teaching . The merits of all these mandates is an argument for another day .The point is , more and more stuff has to get done in fewer and fewer hours . If people are happy with the schools, that's fine with me .If the P.T.A. and the Advocates and others don't think we need more classroom hours, that's fine If you think test scores don't mean very much , who am I to argue ? But, I am not going to let people rationalize failure on something so important . As much as possiibe , I judge. teachers and students on objective criteria . More time and more effort may not be the panacea , but that's how, more often than not , I was able to pick up more weight than the other guy .

@ Gary Englert: Pray, tell us your solutions! We would love to hear them! Since you are obviously a leader in the community, lead us to the betterment of our schools and our town!

We're waiting....

P.S. You are the one who posted with rancor because I wasn't aware of the definition of a word you used and you called another a "failed candidate". That has nothing to do with this discussion. You're also proving my point, aren't you....I received a public school education...guess it didn't serve me too well...

Doesn't Governor Christie send his kids to private school? Hmmm....NJ Governor...no public school....what could that mean?

@Michelle Cadeau: I would like to add one more thing to your comment that by college it's too late to know other cultures. It doesn't make sense: first of all, I'll use myself as an example. I grew up in an affluent, fairly homogenous community. My school had pretty much no diversity. Yet here I am married to a man of another race. Wouldn't that run counter to what you're saying? Also, does that mean there is no hope for people in the midwest? Not a lot of diversity in some of those places...

My kids start classes at the high school at 7:30 and classes run to 2:17 with a 20 minute lunch. What schedules do private schools have?

Cynthia: re: Gov. Christie - fair enough. I was just sayin'...

My kids aren't at the high school level. They are in elementary. Classes start @ 8:00 and pick up is at 2:45. K-3 gets snack time. : )

Lunch, too of course. : )

Education is a highly volatile and personal issue. "It" is not a one size fits all system but rather a compromise. What I find most fascinating about the whole affair is that somehow in some way many children manage to make the most of the public schools and in the end overcome disabilities and challenges and enjoy personal victories every single school year. It is inspiring. What I find highly offensive is the toxic approach taken by some parents in the name of advocating for their kids. In fact many of these fail to see the good things around them and the advances that are made for the hundreds of kids. Yes, we all want to live the American Dream, but somehow it has become a nightmare. Look in the mirror people.

@ Gary: You don't like the state designated groups for comparison and educational measurement and testing. However citizens and parents need some metrics as to how the public schools are doing. I think the measuring is system in place is reasonable and fair. That being said: What metrics would you use? Should we have no metrics and just spend tens of millions or hundreds of millions in taxpayer money for the West Orange Public Schools with no system of measurement or educational outcomes and no system to help hold educators accountable? Is that your plan?

@Michelle Cadeau: I'm curious, do you believe that just because there's a lot of diversity in an area that everyone is accepting of each other? The little girl on my street was crying because a group of girls kept calling her "white girl". My husband grew up in NYC - as diverse as it comes - and he's heard his share of slurs growing up. Yes, growing up among a more diverse population is more likely to lead to a broader world view, but by all means, not everyone is going to embrace it. I think it's a bit shocking that you paint growing up here as being SO superior compared to some other town or area. Diversity in and of itself does not make for understanding.

This discussion is an example of amazing diversity. It is a freedom that we enjoy in this country that others can only dream about. The opportunities that we enjoy every day can easily go unnoticed. Even though I don't agree with everything that is being said, at least I am exposed to people with different opinions. West Orange is a melting pot of so many different ideas. Whether we like them or not, we should be grateful that we can enjoy this diversity together.

I agree that having diversity is important. But I don't think that just because someone may not be exposed to that makes them incapable of embracing that. We did in fact pick WO because of the diversity. I just disagree that school is the only way kids can truly absorb a diverse town. I doubt the 7 hours of school is spent learning about each others' cultures. They are there learning math, science, reading, writing, language, etc. They aren't holding hands singing Kumbaya. That being said, my kids do interact with all different races and backgrounds, but I'm pretty certain they aren't sitting around talking about their various heritages. They work in the classroom together (fostering cooperation) they play together (fostering friendship). That's what learning about the world is about. They also learn that the world can be difficult and unjust, when they study the Civil Rights Movement, or the Holocaust. The real world is not one big happy place. Nor is this town. It has its positives and its negatives.

Michelle: I just get frustrated because you think my kids are TAUGHT about diversity. My kids LIVE it too. (Since you put it in caps.) I am frustrated that you think only WO schools provide diversity. That somehow because I make a tuition payment (although so are you with your taxes) that my kids are isolated, not in a diverse environment, and somehow are having an inferior experience.

I never disparaged the quality of the education that Hazel provides. Although I'm sure based on the public record, test scores could be improved upon. But all schools have room for improvement.

My comments stemmed from my own experience dealing with the principal (prior to Mr. Acevedo) and how I was treated rudely, wasn't able to ask questions about the school, and saw some questionable behavior that concerned me.

What I find appealing about private school is that there is more discipline and structure in their day. That may not appeal to everyone. But it's the right environment for my kids. I like that there are expectations put on them about how they conduct themselves in school and that even when they are out of school they are to remember that they are representatives of their school. I like that there is freedom to incorporate things into the curriculum such as mandatory service to the poor, elderly, and hungry in the surrounding communities. I like that there are consequences for bad behavior and distractions in class are not tolerated. They are there to learn, to conduct themselves with dignity and respect for others. Perhaps that's too strict for some. I happen to feel those things will serve them well in the future. Not expecting you to see it my way, but those were my reasons for not choosing Hazel. I never once said a child couldn't receive a good education there. I just said I saw some problems and it made me uneasy with choosing that school.

I don't talk specifically about YOUR kids or even MINE. I talk about any child. Further more, you have told me your kids are in a very, on all level diverse school, you are in an interracial marriage, so why would I be talking about YOUR kids? (still no answer on which this truly diverse private school is but that is OK)

I am talking about the average kids, one is going thru the WO Public schools and one is in an all white (or all black) private school. And even if the all white kid lives in WO he/she is not as exposed (by any means) as the kid in the WO PS even if they live in the same town. Then take in to consideration that there is probably a reason why a white kid goes to an all white Private School if they live in WO.

The only practical solution to improve education in WO is to open charter schools. The good students can go there and others can stay in the public schools and learn at their own pace without losing their self-esteem. The long time residents should realize that the performance of public schools in WO changed in the last 15 years. This solution will keep our house prices from reaching Newark level. It is on a free fall now.

Just to wrap up...I wonder if you've considered that many people have not been exposed to the level of diversity in WO. Perhaps it's the WO kids who are in a bubble...what will they do when they meet people who are going to have vastly different upbringings? Are they going to be in for a shock that not everyone views the world in such an embracing way?

I think mass media (TV, Internet, Movies, etc.) make it pretty hard for anyone nowadays not to get a sense of the various cultures and differences in the world. I think even those kids in Nebraska who don't have massive diversity will still figure out how to work with, make friends, with, and interact with the rest of the world. : )

To compare a TV show to the life of a kid with classmates from say 12 different countries, speaking 5 different languages in class, having say 6 different religious views and the fundamental education that gives is like comparing apples and oranges (no pun intended)

Thank you, everyone, for your comments. This thread is now closed.